A Performance Lecture on Self Interview of Yejia Sun

In this imagined conversation with myself.

There is rains going on.

I am in a white box with myself’s projection on the wall at the other end of the room.

My projection is basically a reflection of myself but with (special effects) water dropping on my body.

The projection is me in 2022 at Beijing. And myself is me in 2024 at New York.

The projection comes first and then me.

Projection: How’s the weather in New York?

Me: Rainy, as always. As bad as the film of A rainy day in New York.

Projection: No way!

Me: But the rain takes me back to Beijing somehow. Sometimes I will buy a boba and walk into the rain and feel like I am walking on my way back home in high school. New York doesn’t snow like Beijing, it snows a bit too much; but it does rain like Beijing.

Projection: It’s good to know. Anyway, talk about your life! Where do you wanna begin? I guess you have a lot of things that you wanna talk about. I want to leave this choice for you.

Me: This is such a dramaturg way of beginning.

Projection: So you know what dramaturgy means for you right now? Do you? Finally?

Me: I am still confused to be honest. I feel like dramaturgy is my way of getting what I wanna do, but I still don’t know what I will do eventually. You know what I mean?

Projection: Not really.

Me: Well. Anyway.

My friend used to tell me a joke of how she was having a coffee chat with a senior alumni from the company she wants to get into. She says the alumni talks to her as if she was talking to her younger self. It sounds so funny! But I do wish to talk to you some time and today seems to be the best chance!

I would like to talk a bit about my most recent project: the collaborative production that I am currently working on for second year playwright Srujanee. Her production talks about a story about a house in bhubaneswar, India and three sisters’ memory of the house in a magical realism way. What I found really interesting in the initial stage of our conversation with director Brennan about how much this play should be Indian, Srujanee proposed to not present the “indianess” in an explicit way especially music-wise. “My play is about my family. It is set in India for sure, but it doesn’t have to be Indian.” It makes me think about the way we of creating a cultural image of certain culture, is at the same time, essentially embedded with colonial imagination. The narratives of Indian playwright to only write plays which is Indian, and therefore, everything follows should be Indian, not in the way the artists define, but the audiences to decide, is an implicit cultural imagination.

In a ideal world(a world we long to see), anyone can write about anything, which doesn’t have to be about their own culture, but the way of writing and thinking is of course, influences by the culture. But more importantly, such topics can resonate with people from other culture in a timeless way. This also comes to one of the objective that I have been trying to summerize on my practices: Timeliness and Timelessness / Specificity and Universality. I see the two things in a dialectical way and I think in art works, both concepts are important in taking into considerations. It has to be right here and right now(especially for performing arts), but at the same time, it has to be posited into the vertical way of the society as a whole, and also horizontal way of the history.

Projection: I found the “timelessness and timeliness” very interesting. I believe what you are touching upon is not just limited to the theater world but also to the art world as such. Starting from the temporality, I am wondering what you think of why we need theater(or art in general) right now or ever?

Me: Yes, you are right.

I think the way of how dramaturgy acts in the reasons of why we need art right now or ever is becuase dramaturgy is a way of seeing(I actually first wrote this in my application essay for Columbia two years ago and it stays with me ever since). And after these two years of studying, it added more layers to it. First of all, if we talk about temporality, we need to talk about history. We are constantly rewriting history from different points of views. And what is considered as truths right now may be subverted in the future. The timeliness of the contemporary issues which need to be addressed at the moment should be at the same time, be aware of the timeless rewriting of such issues in the future. The timeliness also comes from the fact that in the realm of technological advancement(a world which is always neglected and brutally rejected by artists), the challenge lies in creating narratives that resonate with authenticity. As an artist, it becomes crucial to address issues that have yet to be explored and shine a light on experiences that remain untold. AI may present a challenge, but it also offers new avenues for creativity, pushing the boundaries of storytelling and introducing innovative approaches to the craft.

The timelessness comes from the fact that the questions we asked throughout time and space are actually pretty simple: about our own existance. I want to exploring themes and perspectives that have not been adequately represented, a decolonized reality. By leveraging the power of dramaturgy and writing, I aim to create a world on stage that reflects the nuanced and diverse reality I have witnessed. A multinatural world if we put it in Viveiros de Castro’s words.

Projection: I have never thought about decolonization in my art works before. Then in your way, how do you think is the way to decolonize your works?

Me: I think the question of how to decolonize our works alone may not the most interesting topic for me. I have seen so many works which claim to represent a minority but is a white american story at the core. It is not just what it is; but more importantly, why it is, what it is for, and how it is made. I am so tired of this kind of “artistic laziness” which simply put a western story with the cover of a mythical, oriental or indigenous story. Just as I mentioned in my experience of working in Srujanee’s work, to tell the story of underrepresented voices are important, but more important for me is the way of making and what it is written for.

I am thinking about postcolonial conditions in a way of where to go. I read some really interesting books recently which makes me rethink about what “decolonize” means. Fredric Jameson argues that Lyotard’s arguments against grand narratives are grand narratives itself. Zizek think the western neo-liberalism’s freedom is unable to describe its unfreedom. In this strands of thinking, is the way of decolonization(which I sometimes feel like the identities are marked on the bodies) is at the same time, colonial. I don’t have a clear thought on this for now. But it makes me more cautious of my use of this words, just as last semester’s Spatz’s argument of “decolonization as a metaphor”.

I have been reflecting on my past work of The Rasa Project which we adapted the John Cage’s music. I have to say that I am not entirely confident about that project even though it had a pretty successful performance at National Sawdust. I think the problem with it is the part of decolonization of the working methods. Because the music is pre-determined and licensed in the first place, it eventually makes everything else a secondary creation around the topic. I am trying to explore a way to navigate a collaborative way of making theater with my friends on Asian Diaspora at the moment. And I am trying to bring into amatuer actors on stage and address issues from their own representations on stage.

Projection: I have been making some documentaries recently and I am so interesed in documentary theater. What do you think is at the core of the question of reality or hypotheticality on stage?

Me: I think the core question of the dramaturgy of the real, including the conversations we had about the ethics and morality in our classes which you will take all comes to the question of the representation and reality. I have been thinking about representation in Peggy Phelan’s Unmasked for a lot recently, in which she said  “the immateriality…shows itself through the negative and through disappearance.(19)”. I like the way she puts it. Showing by Disappearing.

Coming from a documentary filmmaking background,  I am always curious about the hypotheticality of theater, the make believe. But this believing is showing by disappearing of reality. I think this is also at the core of why theater (why we do theater, why we love theater): I think it is precisely this immateriality of reality. I didn’t really engage much about the conversations of morality and ethics of reality of documentary theater in class because I actually don’t think this question is the most interesting question to ask for me. My interests are: Can we believe in what is shown in theater is real or hypothetical? Or more importantly, how?

I remember having this conversation in class before where I compare theater with film because when I was a kid, I thought film was real, but I know theater is not real(probably because the theater I have seen in China in childhood, the child plays, are more influenced by expressionism than realism?). I don’t have the answer for this but I remember Ellen says her daughter thinks theater is real. I remember watching the documentary theater piece of Minefield by Lola Arias. I am wondering when I realize they are real people and real stories, instead of some made up characters in a war. I actually know that because of their bodies. Embodiment is the key to the reality in theater. By showing themselves on stage, they are not showing by disappearing, but showing by showing. But then, my question would be: how is the one they show the real ones? In Goffman’s way, the roles on stage are also the characters of their self representation, isn’t it?

Projection: Sounds like you are interested in politics a lot. Since when are you interested in politics of art? I am really curious about your take on art and politics. Is art political or art for art’s sake?

Me: I need to tell my history before answering this question because I think positionality is really important in such conversations. Coming from a country where freedom of speech is not gauranteed, I am familiar with self censorship and I studied art for experiments in art. Last semester, while taking a colonial theory class and also during the Palestine-Israel war, I have a mental breakdown/existential crisis where I hate art. I hate it so much. I felt like I am making pretentious art in a prestigious institution which grants its access to genocide. Therefore, I asked my friends Ghina and Zeina on creating an art piece about Palestine.

But then, it also makes me think when I took a class at film department when the professor said “sending a message is propaganda.” It makes me think about how much of my political call as reflected in art could be propaganda instead of activism. I don’t think the distinction of such political movements is in the call, whether it’s a facist regime or not. But in its methods of making! Activism can be propaganda. Right now, I am calling my team to create a work centered on a Palestinian Olive Tree, which we are centering on a non-human subject in face of war in multimedia and installation with live performance. We are still in the process of making. I think it’s dangerous to over-politicize or depoliticize art. As Benjamin famously wrote that politicizing aesthetics is marxism and aesthetizing politics is facism, I think there need to be a midpoint where we find a balance. I mean over politicizing should be converted to movements in my opinion, depoliticize is such a priviledge too. But the bottom line being art cannot be depoliticized because art is intrinsically polical. Ranciere has already said that art for art’s sake is already political(metapolitical) way, isn’t it?

Where is the boundary and balance for art and politics? For me, I would say, to question, not to answer(which I think Gomez-Pena is basically talking about the same thing). By embodiment, by representing, by showing; not by sloganizing, not by simplizing, not by identifying!

I asked the same question in my collaboration project rehearsal room in convincing my playwright Srujanee to not change her script because of Lynn Nottage says theater is about change. She says theater is about engagement, Brennan thinks theater is about magic of humans, I say theater is about question. Isn’t it beautiful? We all have so many different answers! But our job as dramaturg, is to ask the question: “what does theater means to you?” instead of answering it.

Projection: Have you decided yet about PhD? I know baba and mama wants you to get one. You seem to mention a lot of academic resources. What is the relationship of art and academic to you?

Me: I think so! I think my perspective on academics have changed a lot since I came here. I don’t tend to differentiate it that much in my works to be honest. I feel like studying art in New York City sometimes give you an illusion of you are already a professional artist. But I am full aware of how hard it is and I am always using the professional standard on myself. And after reading Latour’s “academic” writing, or shall I say thought experiment essay? I think it is simply ways of seeing the world. I think criticality and creativity are important because it provides resources for each other. I remember when I first took a class with Prof. Bruce Robbins, who said something that set up my interests on academics: the purpose of humanities is to raise commonsense. I don’t know why I love this sentence so much. But it makes me think: isn’t it the same purpose for art? Do we not believe in the transformative power of art? Are we not changed by art to become an artist?

Let me give you an example of how art change my thinking! I read a lot of works recently by Bruno Latour, Viveiros de Castro and Eduardo Kohn for my ethnography class at the Anthropology Department. I think Actor network theory, perspectivism and multinaturalism have such a great influence on me which I kind of find more inspirations for my own artistic work. I have always been trying to figure out a way to articulate my anti-anthropocentrism and our relationship to the nature(I came from a culture which see nature in different ways than western thinking). I think buddism and taoism(not in a religious way but in a spiritual way) which makes me understand the other species not as inferior to me, but equal to me; thus making nature not different from art. I think these ways of thinking revolutionize my ways of producing art too. And it also makes me realize, hell yeah, art is not only humans, theater is not only humans. Eduardo Kohn talks about how sleeping in a rain forest, you cannot sleep with your face downside because a leopard thinks you would be a dead meat. But we are made of meat, isn’t it? There is nothing superior for a leopard to infer you are a meat, than in Shakespeare, you infer your step father kills your father, isn’t it? I also find the anti-division of culture and nature, art and science arguments from Bruno Latour corresponds to our last semester’s Artistic Research Class.

If sociologists are scientists, I think artists are also scientists. And in Gomez-Pena’s words, our body is our art works! Therefore, theater is an laborarotory.

Projection: It sounds so interesting.

Me: No worries. You will get there. It will be sunny. It will be snowy. It will be rainy tomorrow too.

The rain continues.

My projection blends into the water.

Sun Yejia (she/her/hers) is a dramaturg, filmmaker, and writer from Beijing, China, and based in New York City. Her dramaturgical works are performed at National Sawdust, Chain Theater, Under St.Marks Theater, and Frederick Loewe Theatre. Her playwriting work was featured in the New Play Festival of Cellunova at Theaterlab. She is now in a Student-Artist-Residency at Movement Lab. She has also worked in the National Center for Performing Arts in China, Under the Radar Theater Festival,  Fun Age, Drama League, and International Emmy Awards.  She is currently pursuing an MFA in Dramaturgy at Columbia University. She is interested in topics of decolonization, ecodramaturgy and intermedial performance.

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